Rune Central

Fullbrights are colors that do not go completely dark even w/out ambient light. Player skins in Quake use normal colors and therefore a player can become totally invisible in dark environments.

In DOS and WinQuake, the red light on the player weapons (excluding axe) and launched grenades use fullbright colors, making them visible anywhere. I don't know of any mainstream GLQuake engine that mimics this behavior. In this regard, GLQuake users are at a disadvantage.

One aspect of QuakeWorld is the variety of skins available, many of them using fullbright colors. The use is so widespread that after some controversy, fullbright skins are now considered the norm in QuakeWorld.

I suspect the vast majority of standard Quake players do not use fullbright skins. I don't either, but it is reasonable to expect that it is being exploited. Any texture in Quake can be replaced and is usually done for aesthetic reasons, but obviously fullbright skins offers an advantage.

What's your opinion on it's use? I would like to see an accord on this issue. If the use of fullbright skins is considered a cheat, I would like the admins to randomly request screenshots to expose its use. If they are considered acceptable, I'll think about using them although I'm reluctant to use any aid that circumvents experience.

Like on most issues, I have an opinion on this matter, but I purposely concealed it to foster open debate.

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toyo

For along time now, GLQuakers have enjoyed many aspects of Quake that regular DOS quakers cannot. For example, the use of turning on all lights on the map. This feature was used in helping to edit the map. But it can be used in multiplayer mode as well. RYU admitted to using it at one time or another. With this feature, does it matter if the opposing quaker has a glowing dot on his weapon or not? Not really.

On another point, a GLQuaker can also make the water translucent. I by fact have been riding you before, Toyo, and noticed that you walked right up to a grappling hook (that I could not see) and picked it up. This grappling hook was in a corner and in the water that you faced head on. I questioned you about it and you said that you could see thru the water. I forget the name of this map, but it is where you have to hop along a few mesas in order to land on a platform at exit. In single player mode, it has a bunch of zombies and an ogre or two protecting the exit, if you fail you must ride an elevator back up while fighting a fiend.

As far as changing the textures in quake, I guess it's a free game. One of us could go thru all the maps and make all of the walls black with light grey wireframes, while all of your opponents glow like they were radioactive. There was a remedy to this at one time, but it kicked all of the DOS and WinQuakers. It checked for altered paks and cheats and would not even allow you to connect to the server if it found any of such. I don't think it's fair play to change textures OR use cheats, but what are we gonna do?

Further a "cheat-free" server was created(while still running the cheater server) but hardly anyone ever visited. Dunno if it's still up?!?


Although I have not played in 4 months now, I still use the default textures, lighting, and wateralpha. If I ever beat you, then it is truly fair and square. So, my vote is no cheats! Nope not even the translucent water cheat.

CrAzIcRaCkEr

These full bright models don't sound much different than the paks that put huge crosses in the models, which most people would agree is clearly a cheat.

There is a server running that changes your shirt color when you join the game. I think it is called IHOC runes. If you join with colors 1 1, it changes your shirt to a very bright red color. Since it is server side it clearly isn't a cheat but I was wondering if this is similar to what you are describing.

The map was the Ogre Citadel.

I take offense to the implication that I'm using a cheat when transparent water is supported on every GLQuake engine that I know of. And it's not a hidden feature either -- if it can't be enabled from the options menu, it's explained how in the included help file.

Here's the info blurb in it's entirety from GameSpy for GLQuake v0.97 (one of the oldest GLQuake engines):

"GQuake v0.97 (0.4Mb) allows you to take advantage of a 3Dfx or other miniGL-compatible 3D accelerator card to give higher framerates, higher resolutions, transparent water and other goodies... "

http://www.gamespy3d.com/download/quake.shtml


Even with transparent water, unless the server allows it (no RQ/RQA server does as far as I know), your unable to see players through the water plane. However, you do benefit from more information since your able to see structures such as pillars. In my opinion, it would be considered a cheat if only a small fraction of the Quake community used it, but since it's accessible from reputable sites, and it's use is so prevalent, and it does not offer significant aid, I do not think of it as a cheat.


Diazoild:
"...it changes your shirt to a very bright red color. Since it is server side it clearly isn't a cheat but I was wondering if this is similar to what you are describing."

I'm not familiar with that server, but the fullbright skins I'm thinking about would be undistinguishable from regular skins in the light. They'll get progressively darker as players go into shadows but never become totally black.

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toyo

Transparent water I would say is not a cheat, and the FullBright skins are used in most newer games. Its an issue right now with UT2003. Some say they were not BRIGHT enough, so changes were made. It was mostly talked about in Team matches like CTF.

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Craving for Fragging? Visit: MSM Servers Status

Transparent water in not a cheat you can't even see noone through it..It's just there for eye candy effects if your not using GL Quake you shouldn't even be playing "This is 2003 get a new pc for christ sakes!".... Further more I have never seen a game where most everyone screams "YOU CHEATER!" Even if someone was using a full bright mod it requires skill to frag them still doesn't it ? Which in fact that little pak thing would do nothing for most players because they can't aim for shit anyway.. In conclusion Toyo quit your whining about cheats and use something other than a shaft to get a score.. I'm still awaiting a DM with ya to prove my point so i can roll your little ricer over a hill when im finished with ya.

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[LB]We1rdQ, Woodensoul aka AFUKNBEATDOWN!

My GLQuake with the brightness selector (gamma setting) in options turned up to max, no player, regardless of how dark an area, is ever fully concealed.

In a very dark area, any player was somewhat visible especially yellow and white players. In fact, players in total darkness areas are even easier to spot being dull gray in a sea of blackness.

Because of the way GL renders graphics, I imagine this is true for every player using GL, with the possible exception of certain graphics cards which have the "everything is too dark" problem which requires the ID Software created gamma control utility.

Fullbright patches and those glow paks are certainly cheats; the ability to turn off water rendering is NOT because it is a feature ID Software built into GLQuake (using r_novis 1 and r_wateralpha .01 in the Quake config).

You can try to render transparent (see people in the water from outside of the water) water till you turn blue. If the server doesn't have it, the players won't have it.

Transparent water (while in the water) doesn't seem to be a big deal to me.

Which are you referring too?

Cheater! Quit cheating, you see-thru-water cheater.

Just kidding. Glad to see some validation on the transparent water thing. I use transparent water, and I've had a hard time explaining to some WinQuakers why I don't think it's a cheat. Some people have given me so much grief over it that I've started to wonder if it really is OK.

With GLQuake's r_wateralpha setting and water-vis'd maps you can see through the water surface, but generally you can only see map features like walls, doorways, pillars, etc. You can also see particles, e.g. the red static around a berserker's head or the radiation pain effect. If the server's maps are also water-vis'd (which is pretty rare) then you can see anything -- players, missiles, monsters, weapons, etc -- through the water. That is pretty unfair to non-GL players, but if the server op went to all the trouble to water-vis the maps then it's pretty clearly allowed and expected.

I water-vis'd my maps back when I first got a Voodoo card. I think it looks much better. The opaque water (can't see through, as in WinQuake) was just a hack to make the software renderer go faster, and I really don't think it's how Id intended Quake to look. It's ugly as hell. I occasionally set r_wateralpha to 1 for opaque water and I don't think it really makes a difference in my playing -- I already have the maps so firmly memorized that I don't really need to see where the doorways are to hook them through the water. Consider the "start" map. Stand on the floor above the red armor pool and hook down to the doorway that takes you to the quad -- do you really need to see to be able to hit that doorway with the hook?

Unfortunately some fairly influential people consider transparent water to be cheating. Some match servers (clan ring? clan arena? something like that) force r_wateralpha to 1 when you connect, clearly implying that transparent water is not allowed. If you look in the ProQuake source code you'll see that transparent water is not allowed in "cheat free" mode.

In my opinion modified pak with fullbright models and featureless walls are cheating. I've never modified or replaced any models in my pak files, so I definitely lose sight of people in dark rooms. I also have a very hard time seeing brown or green players on most maps, which is why I made the IHOC server replace shirt colors 1, 3, 5, and 11 with brighter colors (14 or 15). But I can't really fault people too much for minor pak modifications, because I've water-vis'd my maps and some people consider that improper. Pak hacks that let you see around corners definitely cross the line. I'll ban anyone I catch using that.

Yugo, you don't need vis'd maps to see through water with GL ...

r_novis 1
r_wateralpha .01

Using the above settings you can see thru water in GL Quake, period. No vis'd maps required.

I can't take credit for this information, Slot and I had a private argument over transparent water once, I had insisted you had to have vis'd maps for transparent water and Slot won the argument proving a little known GL fact, which is that you DO NOT need vis'd maps for the water to be transparent in GL.

The reason that people use vis'd maps is that it renders graphics faster than the r_novis method, but honestly I couldn't tell a difference in graphics speed when I did some testing between the two.

Hmmm, sounds like we have a concensus then. I only mentioned the wateralpha because I knew it would stir some activity on this subject. For the most part it sounds like everyone who has replied so far agrees that any script and/or configuration setting that you can manipulate is fair game as long as you don't touch the pak files.

CrAzIcRaCkEr

I myself use...

r_novis 1
r_wateralpha .50

It seems to look and feel more real. Seeing the water, but also being able to see through it. Its not a cheat, its an attempt to make things look real.

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Craving for Fragging? Visit: MSM Servers Status

sorry to interrupt but, isn't water like, tranparent in real life anyway? surely making the water transparent adds to the "realism" of the game.
i don't often use GLquake, it slows down my computer too much and with my ping i wouldn't stand a chance but if it makes the game better then why not use it? you don't really go into the water that much anyway while playing, you'll get fragged (cant move fast enough!) so what does it matter if you can see through it. if someone goes into the water for a hook or quad or whatever, they will most likely be killed before they reach it.

any thoughts on what i think?

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/======================\
"I am god, i just don't act like me!"
------------The God Kyra------------
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"any script and/or configuration setting that you can manipulate is fair game as long as you don't touch the pak files."

That sums up my feelings nicely. I still use WinQuake at the default resolution, so I've never tried the GL added effects and such. If someone can see me in the water, more power to them. Knowing what items are in the water, I can usually track someone even without the water transparency.

If you can alter Quake from the console, that's fair, but once you add or change the map, exe, or pak files, that's cheating.

I want to stress what I wrote earlier. Even with transparent water, unless the server allows it (no RQ/RQA server does as far as I know), your unable to see players through the water plane.



That's not a safe enough litmus test. The Quake engine must be acknowledged as being fair. Aimbots, I believe, is a configurable client side manipulation that does not require any modification to the pak files.

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toyo

Ah ha! Then how did you know about water transparency!



He is certainly stressing about this issue.



I cracked the code!

toyo, I just want to point out that unless the server turns the option on, you can't see through the water.



I've been found out!

i used to edit skins and models, in normal mode AND gl.
didnt do it to cheat (made the game slower/crash)
i did it to add my little 'touch' to the game (green slime instead of blood, frogheads instead of exploding body parts..giant dolemite head instead of shubhat..etc).
some of the player skins i designed had fullbright colors,
but i didn't put them in for aiming purposes and to be honest
it doesnt really help...unless someone makes a totally fullbright skin
or some lameness like that.
90% of the time you are aiming at the source of incoming fire anyway..
so that guy lobbing rockets isn't exactly hidden for long.
all i can see is it maybe giving an advantage over campers.

having clear water would give advantage TO campers, but like someone mentioned its pretty easy to kill ppl in water anyway.

you see someone submerge heading a certain direction and taking into account certain doorways/openings they have to be headed towards (not to mention air bubbles), all thats required is a little timing.

transparent water and fullbright can give an advantage, but i don't think its a definite enough advantage...meaning i dont think it makes someone get a kill they normally wouldn't have gotten. Low ping makes a bigger difference than these two things...and its not a cheat to play on cable

anyway, since fullbright is on WinQuake and transparent water is on GL it balances out =)